Lynn from Valueflows core team here. And member of social.coop and MayFirst, coincidentally. I am very happy to work with you all (in all the gory detail) if you decide to go in a direction that would benefit from Valueflows. I think it could work for “essential minimum” up to the vision of “vibrant ecosystem of tech coops”, which would be amazing. Love the supportive discussion and the ideas!
Lynn from Valueflows core team here. And member of social.coop and MayFirst, coincidentally.
Wow, so many coincidences can’t be just coincidence…
I am very happy to work with you all (in all the gory detail) if you decide to go in a direction that would benefit from Valueflows.
Do you believe that a small (90 min), realtime VF workshop could be useful to start to imagine what form could this federation could take? In my case (and I offer it in case it could be useful) I model with SysML that focuses in more concrete actions, but I feel that a value flow model could be enlightening…
I tagged this as a matter of ‘contribution economy’. This relates to stuff @lynnfoster and @EduMerco were raising above, in terms of Valueflo.ws. This might warrant a thread of its own if it develops?
Summarising where discussion is at around the core decision . .
The core decision is . .
Social. coop @mnoyes @EduMerco @edsu @akshay hasn’t yet formed a view on this. Admins seem to regard the platform as being not too odd admin-wise (altho without hands-on experience as yet) but the coop hasn’t formed a view on whether they have reason to support BBB in addition to Jitsi (which they already have thro MayFirst membership). Would be good to get some definition on this sooner than May 1st, which is (?? @mnoyes ) when social. coop will make a formal choice - like, b4 mid March?
MayFirst @jamie Evolution 1 - Find a new home - #21 by jamie finds hosting BBB too far a stretch, would hold back existing infrastructure development commitments. Part of the reason is also they prefer PHP as a (simpler) admin regime, while BBB is under a (more complex) Docker/Ansible regime.
femProcomuns @dvdjaco commented informally in a private chat
discussed this briefly with the rest of our team at femProcomuns today [Feb 1st], we would be more comfortable with sth in the line of what Henning mentioned Evolution 1 - Find a new home - #5 by mikemh. We’re a small team and already spread quite thin in several active projects. Taking in meet. coop as an internal project would mean quite some extra work.
Can you confirm this is a firm NO for hosting @dvdjaco ?
Collective.tools and OpenCoop are in collaboration in some projects, and may have an option they could bring. Informal conversation right now. Anything more formal to state at this point @petter @osb ? Sustainaibility of paid contributions to the platform operations (both front and back end) is probably the core concern - as it has been in meet. coop. Some kind of federated provision would be very welcome, both front- and back-end.
No other multistakeholder coop candidates (ie very front-end focused) for hosting right now. How about S America? Other continents? @wouter you have some previous leads w India? @dvdjaco w Argentina? Collocall (@hng ) remains a fallback option, more back-end focused.
Dear all, I’ll be out of touch until 11/03. Just to know that silence is not lack of interest (on the contrary), just a happy lack of net connection.
MN: Hi, is there any possibility that Agaric or Community thing (sorry, forgot the name) might take over social.coop’s BBB accounts now on Meet.Coop?
MM: Yes definitely. Our BBB host is a great friend I have been educating on cooperatives. We have talked about this and are really wanting to get involved even though we are not a coop - yet. We have servers around the globe available and serving BBB to many diverse schools mostly.
I believe that becoming a coop or a coop member is a process of learning and that is why I started building CommunityBridge - to educate people on coops. At a point with communityBridge members that are unfamiliar with cooperativism , I point out that they are already being cooperative by helping to fund the site for those that cannot afford to do so - then we talk about the principles of cooperatives and you can see where I am going… If I try to get them to join before experiencing the benefits it seems to impair the actual learning process. So - Yes, we have the infrastructure and people willing to take this on. Let’s talk!
And the site could still live on as meet.coop domain for members. Does not have to be under communitybridge domain.
we have the infrastructure and people willing to take this on
I’m posting this strand to Evolution 2 - Migrate the platform - #9 by mikemh for tech-level exchange. Conversation might begin with the writeup of meet. coop BBB admin regime here Nextcloud ? Social. coop admins seem to see this as pretty do-able.
Ideally some combination of all of us keep meet.coop going mostly as it presently is, and @agaric would like to help, but if everything falls through as @freescholar has posted the same backend provider for her https://CommunityBridge.com that never ended up joining/merging with meet.coop despite discussion could keep everyone’s meetings going on meet.coop, albeit temporarily without the green power commitment.
Just affirming that we are here and would like to support meet co-op members continuing to receive services and help maintain the coop structure, especially for use members, and regrow the operational side when possible.
meet. coop has entered discussions with WebTV of Montreal @gcotnoir (Evolution 1 - Find a new home - #31 by mikemh above) and we have a further discussion scheduled next week. Here’s a note on the options that are being discussed: Nextcloud and here’s an extract:
We acknowledge that there seems to be a good fit between what WebTV is offering and what meet. coop is seeking. Specifically, it fits better than other options: social.coop, Community Bridge @freescholar , Collocall @hng . On that basis, we now start discussing practicalities with WebTV.
- Option A - Migrate: Migrate meet. coop platform services and membership relations to WebTV
- Option B - Federate : Establish a fraternal (back-end, operational, platform) relationship between WebTV and a continuing meet.coop entity, which continues to have its own front-end and governance
The subgroup of meet. coop Board members that’s in this discussion (the @evolution team) feels that Option B is too much of a stretch - not radically dissimilar from the situation we’ve been attempting to operate for the past year, which is unsustainable. So we’re hoping that Option A will work out.
Posted this in response to MikeH, but thought it may not get viewed by all.
WebTV looks like a great option for a new home - hoping it goes smoothly. If things change, Agaric now has an instance of BBB running on our .coop domain for anyone to take a test drive and see how it runs. It has the latest version 2.6 of BBB and can scale as needed. It is also modified to only run when in use, for low-low overhead. http://meet.agaric.coop
That is very interesting! Would love to chat about it !
Update (reposted from Changes coming to meet.coop – please read)
Good news! Conversations are underway between members of the meet.coop board and representatives of WebTV.coop regarding the transfer of hosting and sys admin for the meet.coop BigBlueButton instance to WebTV. WebTV has expressed commitment to the mission and continuing operation of Meet.Coop and to ensuring a seamless continuity of service to users.
Follow updates in our forum here and in threads that branch from here as the project moves forward.
It is a single server in EU, Hosted by Stephen Dame - He syays: Ideally he could build an autoscaler that runs servers in US, CAN, Europe on demand. Stephen has offered to provide some free consulting and “free use” of his commercial scaling tools.
We are open to discuss all options.
Highlights of the discussion between meet. coop Evolution team and WebTV Nextcloud
- Announcement: key msg for users is, the service will stay the same; WebTV wants to continue the mission. Publishing this: via meet. coop forum, Mastodon social.coop (open public channels), OpenCollective (main channel, direct to all members).
- Option A (migrating) is preferred by WebTV. Ditto by meet. coop. Convergence!
- Transparency - Preference is confirmed, to use the open Forum to conduct the transition, as far as possible.
- Gather and share documentation that describes meet. coop operations: tech infrastructure, collaborator-members, user membership. @andia to lead.
- Assemble and share cash flow data for meet. coop @wouter @mikemh
- Gabriel to check out (within WebTV) what issues need to be clarified within the relationship regarding money and governance, and email all. @gcotnoir
- If Gabriel gets go-ahead through WebTV Board, the platform and members’ migration could be quick, starting in June completed by summer.
Opening three fresh threads, so this one doesn’t get too tangled:
- Governance: @wouter volunteers to draft a format for All members to vote. add a general vote for the whole membership, user and operational member. Also include the “collaborator members” class that was added a year ago…
Infrastructuring: @mikemh to talk w @petter on federating of platform space provisioning. Convene sysadmins from our community to explore @
commons.hour@flancian volunteers participation too. Include Autonomic (CommonsCloud). @gcotnoir obviously. Tech circle obviously (@dvdjaco, @yurko). Micky Metts @ Agaric. MayFirst perhaps (their strategy is different). Oli SB @ OpenCoop is collaborating w Collective Tools in this area. Fair.kom @ Vienna.
- Data privacy: @mikemh to convene a commons.hour on privacy/security/national regulatory frameworks/server strategy/coop service strategy. Include: @petter, @flancian. Tor project (@anarcat). Simply Secure (Georgia Bullen). @gcotnoir.@dvdjaco.
- Members’ participation & communication: @mikemh: Create a forum thread to highlight the task lists in the four main evolution topics.
- Members’ participation & communication: @richjensen: Send out a newsletter about this Board conversation so members get aware of this and get encouraged to contribute. @wouter Rich, if you manage to draft a summary message, I can help sending it out through the channelsmh: do this as a forum thread, announce via OpenCollective mailing.
- Governance: @wouter: proposal about responsibilities in the Board of Stewards that we want to uphold recurringly or that need tackling topically. Include time commitment. Include possibility of ‘project focus’ - eg infrastructuring thro federating.
Full notes of the meeting: Nextcloud
We propose Webtv operates the (BBB) service and innovation.coop pays them for that. Innovation.coop handles marketing and customer first line support, and - if there is interest amongst the user base - engages with users to involve them in governance to whatever level they desire.
We’re keen in our meeting to get a sense from Gabriel as to where the natural/comfortable boundaries are for Webtv and to seek to work with those where we can. We feel both Webtv and innovation.coop have some flexibility and share a desire to see meet.coop survive and thrive as a cooperative brand and a basis for evolving community.
- Ops members to approve the proposal, including use of the current funds at OC https://opencollective.com/meet-coop. A large part should go to compensate the workers that worked on meet. coop for the last 3 years without much compensation. @wouter at work on this.
- Pitch to Ops members: Discuss: how can they stay involved? Encourage them to continue contributing.
- Pitch to User members: we propose to migrate to a new mode of federating meet. coop v2.0: webtv + innovation. coop, new version BBB , continue investing energy. Not a voting matter (this lies with Ops members), we invite comment and strategic advice, ultimately they vote with their feet as users, and we do all we can to enthuse and engage them.
- For all the above: develop some revised advisory and contributory framework aka governance through innovation. coop. Is there a kind of meet. coop circle inside innovation. coop? A circle could hold scheduled open meetings (‘User community’?) maybe two or four times a year. Anybody interested can contribute. @Graham wonders whether the Board membership can be morphed into User community, simpler than convening a Board with fixed membership but variable availability? To be discussed. The challenge is to keep the wagon on the road, halt decline in membership, start process of engaging w user members and potential users. We will be led by the energy of our customers/members. Avoid unnecessary complexity in governance.
A public announcement will be released soon, and the new operational regime will be operating as from Sept 30th 2023. Draft announcement (to be finalised) is here Nextcloud
Great meeting Congratulations to everybody in the team, this past 12 months Congratulations to WebTV and innovation.coop for stepping into the new operational rioles
2023 09 07 - meet.coop v2.0 migration meeting - Actions
Plenty of actions!!! Movin’ along
- @graham Innovation.coop to pick up rental of Hetzner servers soon as possible. With support from @dvdjaco if needed.
- @mikemh to check with @andia/Hypha the nature of the support relationship that might be needed short term with Hypha for Keycloak operations, including learning curve for @gcotnoir/WebTV
- @gcotnoir WebTV OK to pick up back-end operations from here onwards, and claim costs @ OpenCollective.
- @gcotnoir Operational migration to WebTV, with existing servers and BBB version: end of September
- @gcotnoir Migration of BBB to latest version and migration of Koumbit server to WebTV: end of the year in December slack time.
- Adopt Matrix as a quick turn-round chat channel, preferred to email. @mikemh @dvdjaco send @gcotnoir an invite to Element/Matrix. Update: @dvdjaco did this for the tech group.
- @wouter to set up new support@ mailbox and provide access to @graham for contact@ and to @gcotnoir for support@. Done.
- @mikemh etc. Announce the plan to update BBB version later in 2023, with extended features. Part of the User members’ announcement (draft)
- Revise and release the User members’ announcement within a week of this meeting. Update: this is delayed, apologies - @mikemh is travelling until Sept 21st but will move this forward as much as possible, as soon as possible.
- Website editing: @graham @wouter @gcotnoir . Update meet.coop website content to reflect current reality and what’s coming. This is a follow-up action to the members’ announcement, with the same dual language content.
- @graham Keep the forum for open informal community support and discussion. WebTV will use support@ email for formal tech support. Innovation.coop will monitor and respond on contact@ emails.
- @wouter and @mikemh urgently need to meet with @graham, to bring him/innovation.coop fully into the front-end operational loop, notably day-to-day updating of registry of members (aka spreadsheet) and handling SSO access codes.
- @graham innovation.coop OK to pick up front-end operations (and some membership development) from here onwards, and claim costs @ OpenCollective
- @wouter and @mikemh to put item 3 Ops members to approve into the Ops members’ decision channel asap.
- @wouter @mikemh to bring discussion of all-hands and Ops members processes into the Ops members decision channel asap. @andia @graham to ride shotgun on this.
- @wouter @mikemh to pick up revised relationship with the Board, following release of the User members’ announcement.
- @graham innovation.coop to host a monthly (quarterly?) open call for all members.
- @wouter creates an admin account for Graham on the WordPress meet.coop website
- @gcotnoir Set up a meeting with WebTV communication agent
- Discussion of working arrangements and existing knowhow around data privacy and GDPR to be prompted in the forum @mikemh.
- @mikemh A page in the forum , thanking for contributions across the last three years
- @mikemh @wouter @graham @mnoyes Pick up Evolution 4 - Do the learning, evolve the legacy review of what we’ve learned over three years. And everybody! For example, @osb and @petter have expressed an interest in this too.